My Problem with the Nordschleife

"66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash" (66671) 09/30/2017 at 14:15 • Filed to: None

2

21

Doesn’t a longer track leave more room for human error? Wouldn’t a shorter track provide for more consistent results over multiple laps with any given driver? I understand that the ‘ring has established itself and can put a car to the limit in all sorts of driving scenarios within one lap, but for comparisons sake it just doesn’t make sense to me. You could do multiple laps of Tsukuba or something in one session and take the best of those times, but with ~7 minutes a lap and just one attempt (?) it just seems like the results would be very inconsistent based on the driver. Thoughts?

Discerning > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 14:22

2

The short answer is: Yes

Familiarity and practice are also key components outside of human error. Even professional drivers have weaknesses and strengths at any given track.

The more practice a driver has over the same turns again and again, the more consistent (not just faster) they will become.

Tsukuba is a great example. A driver can go around Tsukuba in a quick car about 7 times compared to once around the ‘Ring. Practice makes perfect.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 14:23

1

Yeah but Twingo on the ring so your point is invalid (yes that’s me).

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 09/30/2017 at 14:30

0

Only half-valid, not a first gen, but fair enough ;)

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > Discerning 09/30/2017 at 14:46

0

I was playing the original Forza on Maple Valley Short (pictureforants?.jpg) and Tsukuba doing some time trials in Lmp1/Group C cars and it’s interesting to see the consistency and times between cars, with these faster cars I can usually determine what car is faster within a few laps. Idk if you’ve ever played Forza but I like the short configuration because it still has a little bit of elevation changes in that last hairpin-ish corner and down to the main straight, I’ve yet to be able to consistently take that corner as fast as I can, that one corner is where most of the variation comes from I’d say. And of course like you said, once you practice enough for perfect, only then do I like to compare cars.

The problem with this though is that some cars with straight line capabilities(for example) will be less suited for shorter tracks with less straights, compared to handling oriented cars. So in that case you need at least two tracks to compare.

Chuckles > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 14:53

1

It’s a very fair point. I think it’s important to remember that no single statistic can tell the full story of a car. That’s why we rely on everything from short, driver independent statistics like 0-60 times, mid range driver dependent statistics like lap times, up to long range driver/owner dependent statistics like reliability and maintenance costs.

I think people like to use the Nordschleife as a benchmark because it takes a well balanced car (in the hands of a capable driver) to set a really good time there. You can’t just compensate for poor handling by overpowering it on long straights. A car that sets a good time at the ring is a car that I know I can enjoy on some seriously fun roads.

My citroen won't start > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 15:01

1

I guess the thing about the ‘burg is that the track tests most aspects about a car: cornering, how the mechanicals cope under stress, straight line speed, hairpins, corner speed, etc.

It isn’t a fast track or a technical track, it’s everything, and the lap time shows that. Nurburgring times are never about consistency, but “how fast we could go around it once”.

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > Chuckles 09/30/2017 at 15:03

0

(Good points, completely agree with 1st part)

The thing about a short track though, is that usually there won’t even be room for a long straight for cars to power through, and with one or two high, low, and mid-speed corners you can more accurately determine which car is more capable and balanced regardless of driver. The difference between cars will be smaller, but still marginal.

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > My citroen won't start 09/30/2017 at 15:10

0

Yeah, the fact that it can test the car across so many different kinds of corners and whatnot make a great place to test the car, but my problem is with comparisons. A single lap around the Ring without obvious mistakes can give you a good approximation on how fast the car is, but there is so much space for you to loose precious tenths which add up more and more the longer the track.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 15:13

0

Fair haha

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 09/30/2017 at 15:15

0

*honhon

I have another burner, try to guess it! > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 15:38

2

IIRC one of the big reasons they lap there. Is because the pavement is more like a public road than a smooth racetrack, so it’s supposedly more accurate.

Chuckles > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 15:41

1

I’ll agree that it’s probably not the best track for car comparisons, but there might be other factors that contribute to its popularity as a benchmark. It’s been around a while, it’s very accessible for European car companies (who may have had enough influence to make it the de-facto benchmark), and it’s probably a lot more accessible to drive on than other tracks so it’s easier to run there often. It’s probably a lot easier to take your car back to the ring every weekend to test it instead of getting access to a place like Tsukuba.

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > I have another burner, try to guess it! 09/30/2017 at 15:50

0

Good point though, I guess it helps to tailor high-performance road cars on an actual road, which it technically is.

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > Chuckles 09/30/2017 at 15:57

1

Definitely, I don’t expect it to change, especially considering how many cars have already ran there, and of course, the track is a challenge and not many like it (if any at all) stand today (remember when F1 cars got airtime around the Ring? pepperidgeremembers.jpg). It’s too iconic, and I’m glad it’s still being put to good use.

Discerning > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 15:57

1

I used to love racing at Maple Valley short and Tsukuba. Drifting at Maple Valley was fun too.

I was really into hot lapping cars on Tsukuba for a respective class (A or S usually) until everyone I played with insisted we race at Road Atlanta, Road America (6), and Laguna Seca.

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > Discerning 09/30/2017 at 16:06

0

Raod Atlanta (short and long) is a great track, I love the downhill “esses” and the chicane going up the hill, getting wheelspin as you go over the crest is so much fun. Leguna Seca is probably the most iconic American racetrack for me. Never liked Road America tbh, except for the Hurry Downs turn.

Discerning > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 16:27

0

I enjoy Road Atlanta. Feels different in the game than it does in real life for some reason and that taints it a little for me. Maybe because it’s so much more tempting to go 11/10th’s on the game and I am always a tiny bit afraid of going off in real life. lol

66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash > Discerning 09/30/2017 at 17:32

1

I’ve yet to track a car irl but I can imagine when you have your own money on the line it takes it’s toll lol.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 19:43

1

The biggest automakers in the world find the best test driver(s) they can and rent out the track under the perfect conditions for these attempts. Clearly, the driver matters, but I love ‘Ring times, and you can be certain they’re only leaving a couple seconds on the table vs. a “perfect” lap.

The ‘Ring is unforgiving and takes balls of steel for a record run - that’s what makes a fast time special. It is man & machine, in perfect synchrony.  

I also love track records for other circuits and the Stig’s times on the old Top Gear test track.

My citroen won't start > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 09/30/2017 at 19:46

1

I get it, the nurburgring says more about the driver than the car I think.

Nauraushaun > 66671 - 200 [METRIC] my dash 10/01/2017 at 04:46

0

I think it goes both ways. It’s length and variety increases chance of inaccuracy, but also ensures testing under varied conditions.

But yes, they probably could create a smaller track with just as much variety